Can a software developer do 500k

Forum: Training, Studies & Career Junior software developer (trainee) at 31?





Hello, I have completed an IT apprenticeship and a business informatics (M.Sc.) degree and am looking for a job in my home region (North Rhine-Westphalia). After my training (before my studies) I worked for a few years, but only in the administrative area (no programming). I am now 31 years old and only have experience in software development through university projects and small hobby projects. I would be reluctant to go on the "administrative path" and take on management tasks, but rather become a useful developer. That's why I came across junior (trainee) positions in the field of Java development. However, I fear that I am already too old for such positions. I would therefore be interested in your assessment. Have I already missed the introduction to software development? Best regards Jens



No. Just apply for a normal project. Otherwise not enough comes in. This is called learning at work.



Jens wrote:> I am now 31 years old and only have experience> in software development through university projects and small hobby projects.> I would be reluctant to continue the "administrative path" and> take on management tasks, but rather > become a useful developer. You think of that a little late, doesn't it? In addition, where one earns better in the management area and is valued well into old age. > That's why I came across junior (trainee) positions in> Java development. However, I fear that> I am already too old for such positions. Apply, they will tell you if they want you. > I would therefore be interested in your> assessment. Have I already missed the entry into> software development? What do you think? At an age in which many experienced developers slowly have to get used to the idea of ​​a career change, because in many companies with 35 ... 40, software development is over, you want to start. You must be lucky there.



Jack wrote: 'What do you think? At an age in which many experienced developers> slowly have to get used to the idea of ​​a career change,> because in many companies with 35 ... 40 SW development is over,> you want to start. You must be lucky there. Is that really the case with the age limit? I don't necessarily want to work in a startup. I prefer the middle class. I wouldn't expect a developer to have to retrain at the age of 40. Many greetings Jens



The young quick tippers are as unreliable as they are fast. Oops & they're gone. When it comes to supporting a product, an elder does it.



Jens wrote:> Jack wrote: >> What do you think? At an age when many experienced developers >> slowly have to get used to the idea of ​​a career change, >> because in many companies with 35 ... 40 the end of software development is >> you want to start. You must be lucky. >> Is that really the case with the age limit? It's always difficult to say because everyone only has their own experiences. According to my limited perception, experienced developers are desperately wanted and not forcibly retrained at 40. Do I understand you correctly, you just finished your studies? Then it doesn't matter if you're 31 or 25. What difference is that supposed to make? You have studied and are now starting to work. As long as you don't want to earn more than the 25-year-old ... The other question is whether a trainee position makes sense. I always thought this was for people who should get to know everything once and then choose whether they want to become a developer, project manager, sales person, etc. But you already know that. There are also positions for graduates (by that I mean: professional experience not explicitly required) without a special trainee program.



Stefan W. wrote:> Do I understand you correctly, you have just finished your studies>? Then it doesn't matter if you're 31 or 25. What difference is that> supposed to make? You have studied and are now starting to work. As long as you don't want to earn more than the 25-year-old .... I know that I don't earn more just because I'm older. So that shouldn't be a problem. > The other question is whether a trainee position makes sense. I always thought> this is for people who should get to know everything once and> then choose whether they want to become a developer, project manager, sales person etc.>. But you already know that. That's how I was also familiar with trainee programs. So more for the "high flyers" / management offspring. In the job advertisement, however, a Java trainee is explicitly sought. In the meantime I have seen several job advertisements for graduates, where there is a kind of advanced training program in Java at the beginning. But many are for consultants / developers and I have no desire to work as a consultant. > There are also positions for graduates (by that I mean:> Professional experience not explicitly required) without a special> trainee program. Right. I have them on my screen too. However, I find these trainee programs very attractive because there is a systematic induction at the beginning. Of course, a "normal" entry point does not rule this out. ;) Best regards Jens

of AgeDeveloper (Guest)


So I'm 37, since my studies 14 years ago I've been working as a C # developer, sometimes also as an architect or project manager. Without specialization it now looks poor, so if you don't have BigData or AI on it, you are obsolete. If you don't fit into the young dynamic team from the outset, then you are too expensive because you no longer work for 45-55k and still enjoy working unpaid overtime and continuing your education at the weekend. I regret not leaving software development in my early 30s. Now I have no choice but to stick with the dump or switch to another dungeon with even worse conditions. So if you really want to do that because you have fun programming, then try to specialize as quickly as possible, preferably AI / BigData / Security and definitely cloud.



AlterEntwickler wrote:> I am 37, since my studies 14 years ago I have been working as a> C #> developer, sometimes also as an architect or project manager.> Without specialization, it looks like nothing now, so if you don't have BigData> or AI, is obsolete. If you don't> fit into the young dynamic team from the outset, then you are just too expensive,> because you no longer go to work for 45-55k and still enjoy> working unpaid overtime and continuing your education at the weekend. >> I regret not having left the software development in my early 30s.> Now I have no choice but to stay with the dump or to switch to another dump with even worse conditions. >> So if you really want to do that, because you enjoy programming> try to specialize as quickly as possible in the> best AI / BigData / Security and definitely cloud. Is there such a thing as a "developer burnout" that occurs more and more among experienced developers due to the high expectations (new technologies, agility, cost pressure, time pressure etc.), their own age (over 30) and the industry? I'm a friend of mine and I'm 35 and a developer through and through (including a degree in computer science). He wants to leave development in the next 2 years and move towards project management. I also hear lamentations from others, but I always thought that it was just a good thing in any job. ;) Best regards Jens



Jens wrote:> My friend is 35 and a developer through and through (including> Computer science studies). He wants to leave development in the next> 2 years and move towards project management. The first thing I would ask him is why. It's about money and status, or he's in an area that he doesn't believe will have a future. Another variant would be to make excuses not to admit that he cannot keep up in the current field. I have seen some "managers" whose work at the grassroots level was of little use.



Jens wrote:> eg "go on and> take on management tasks, but rather become a useful> developer. That's why I came across junior (trainee) positions in> Java development. However, I fear that> I I am already too old for such positions. I would therefore be interested in your> assessment. Have I already missed the entry into> software development? >> Best regards With a master’s degree in business informatics, I would prefer to focus on business processes, consulting or project management. This is valuable work from a management point of view. Java development is usually a necessary evil, which is increasingly being outsourced to low-cost countries. Even if you do that in Germany, you are also happy to take an IT specialist or a bachelor's degree. It also becomes with increasing age It is more difficult to find a job in development, although this applies more generally to the job market, but especially to software are development.

of Carrier pigeon fancier (Guest)


Jens wrote:> encountered Java development. However, I fear that> I am already too old for such positions. I would therefore be interested in your> assessment. Have I already missed the entry into> software development? I know people who "officially" started when they were over 40. However, you should be able to demonstrate a certain interest in the development and why you have only now decided on the area. Simply cut out applications and don't be picky about the first job and don't shy away from expanding your radius, you don't always have the job on your doorstep.

of Carrier pigeon fancier (Guest)


Nix für mich wrote:> With a master’s degree in business informatics, I would prefer to focus> in the direction of business processes, consulting or project management. This is valuable work from a management perspective. Empty garbage cans too. > Java development is mostly a necessary evil, which is more and more outsourced to> low cost countries. What nonsense, the project exchanges are full of orders, you get slapped with inquiries. > Even if you do that in Germany,> you are also happy to take an IT specialist or a bachelor's degree. You have no idea how things are going here. > Also, with increasing age in development, it becomes more difficult> to find a job. Age doesn't really matter in this area, just what you can do. > This applies more generally to the job market, but especially> in software development. Yes, the expert speaks. Now go handing out newspapers again, that's probably where your expertise lies.



I'm already 37 and have studied for quite a long time, so that I've only had almost 10 years of full-time professional experience as a software developer. meanwhile in the third job. I had to leave the first one (bankruptcy), the second job was too boring for me. Was forced not to do anything and was not allowed to help my colleagues either, otherwise they would have finished their work faster and now in the third it is not going so well either. Actually, I've always followed the same track: as a person between the worlds, came to connect them. Interfaces. Weaver services, etc. I like to get involved in many projects where I see that interfaces are needed or something threatens to fail because of them. The short official channel - by the way. my boss calls these shadow projects and AUB does not have an overview of where I am currently involved. Handicrafts, philosophizing, drinking coffee ... I could go on like this for years. On the other hand, I don't like being too rigid on code for 8 hours. better just nine PoC - the dirty work should be done by someone else



Jens wrote:> I'm a friend of mine, I'm 35 and a developer through and through (including> Computer science studies). He wants to leave development in the next 2 years and move on to project management. I also hear from others> I lament, but I always thought that it was simply part of> good form in any job. ;) Even if the "pigeon fancier" doesn't like to hear it, many managers see development as a necessary evil and pay accordingly and put them under pressure. The point is to implement something someone has come up with as quickly and cheaply as possible. Those who no longer want to receive orders, but really want to design systems, are more likely to become an IT architect, project manager, process designer. There the developers are told what they have to do in what time, at what cost, and in what quality. Carrier pigeon fancier wrote:> Also >> it becomes more difficult to find a job with increasing age in development.> The age plays exactly no role in this area, only what you are capable of>. If you have a very good reputation, especially as a freelancer, age plays less of a role. Since you are talking about project exchanges, I assume that you see it more from the freelance perspective? It is often different for employees, especially when it comes to IT. Older applicants are often less trusted, especially when it comes to more modern topics. I don't like it myself either, but it is often like that. I know well-running IT companies who are handily looking for developers, but please not over 40. Ideally between 30 and 40 and with around 5-10 years of experience in the required area. Then the market looks very good.

of AgeDeveloper (Guest)


Jens wrote:> Is there such a thing as a "developer burnout", which occurs increasingly among experienced> developers because of the high> expectations (new technologies, agility, cost pressure, time pressure etc.),> their own age (over 30s) and the industry ? No, that's the sad experience I've had. I have been with the company for many years, the previous 6 developers have become 3. Although I still have a lot of additional tasks, team and project management, architectural design, etc. Thanks to the change of ownership in the company, the framework conditions have also changed significantly. I can no longer complete all the tasks, development in particular usually falls by the wayside, as I can barely sit on something for 2 hours without a break and if I do, the concept is more important again. Our HR provides us with almost no applications, the market is empty, they can choose where they work, etc. So I finished my CV and made a funny application. The positions as manager / leader are not so many and I as a "developer" with 14 years of experience am despite Wi.-Inf. Studies probably not the right candidate or, with> 80k as an idea, too expensive. Didn't bother me so much, thought, as a developer, I'll get somewhere straight away. So I wrote applications there too, my salary dropped to 75k, less than I have now, but that would be a lot less responsibility. There was also little response, or then only consulting where there was also travel time = free time, because everything was by train, etc. Then I got involved with the annoying recruiters, but they also told me that there was no job for me with> 75k , because not specialized in a currently hyped topic. One or the other company is still looking for such developers, but 65k is the upper end, sometimes only 55k. I should learn a few of the cutting edge technologies.



AlterEntwickler wrote:> Thought as a developer I would find a place immediately. So I also> wrote applications, my salary has dropped to 75k, less> than I have now, but would be a lot less responsibility.> There was also little response. Try positions for SW architects or SW architects. Project Manager. You get 75k without any problems, because many developers don't feel like it. In addition, there are still enough applicants for developer positions who are happy about 65k, because they currently only have 55k in one dumpster. You don't get the money for developing, which you rarely get to, but for concepts, etc. Your value for the company is your experience. Many others can probably program faster and / or better, but you know the product, the colleagues, the processes and seem to be able to handle the responsibility.



AlterEntwickler wrote:> So I finished my CV and applied funny. The> positions as manager / leader are not so many and I as a "developer"> have 14 years of experience despite Wi.-Inf. Studies probably not the> suitable candidate or with> 80k as an idea too expensive. > Didn't bother me so much, thought as a developer I would find somewhere immediately. So> I wrote applications there too, my salary is down to 75k,> less than I have now, but it would be a lot less> responsibility. Also there was little response, or then only consulting where> then also travel time = free time, because everything is by train, etc. Out of interest: Have you already been to job interviews or have you been kicked out?

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Softwerker wrote:> Try positions for SW architects or SW project managers. Since> you get 75k without any problems, because many developers don't feel like it>. In addition, there are still enough applicants for developer positions who are> happy about 65k, because they currently only have 55k in one dumpster. I already failed in the project manager positions. Without ITIL, PMP, CISSP, Prince2 etc.there is hardly any chance or then only for a starting salary. > You do not get the money now for developing, which you> hardly come to any more, but for concepts etc. Your value for the company is> your experience. Many others can probably program faster> and / or better, but you know the product, the colleagues, the processes> and you seem to be able to handle the responsibility. Is a problem in our company, I am actually 60% still a developer, I do the team management, architecture, project management on the side. Over the years, you have saved yourself all the jobs and processes between sales and development. But I can't send any of the remaining developers to a pre-sales meeting, they don't have a user view. My boss also likes to wait until I'm on vacation and then throw other processes overboard. But I am always scheduled as a half developer position, which is also putting me under increasing pressure. Peter P. wrote:> Out of interest: Have you already been to job interviews or have you> flown straight out? Both, with the really big ones, there is a direct rejection or maybe the first round of the phone call. These are also the project manager positions and they then notice in the phone calls that my project management skills do not fit the group. They hardly have developer positions in Germany anymore, if they then have correspondingly specialized embedded C ++ or specialist knowledge in autonomous driving etc. The quota looks better for medium-sized companies, although it quickly becomes clear to many that they do not want to pay 75k or more, but expect willingness to work overtime . Hardly any with time recording, but strange bonus systems (with 300 hours of overtime there is an extra monthly salary). 30 days of vacation are a rarity. Very often you have to add the costs for a public parking garage around the corner because there are no parking spaces. Or the position sounds exactly like my current one: "You take on the project management and technical leadership of a development team" "You design interfaces in the web and desktop area" "You coordinate internal and external stakeholders" "You have in-depth knowledge in the areas of IoT and Machine Learning "" You have in-depth knowledge of modern programming languages ​​(C # and JavaScript) and technologies (e.g. HTML5) "Then come to us as a senior developer, we pay you 65k for it and have a dusty foosball table in the corner that was there two weeks ago sometimes a fruit basket. I still have the requirements from the position, the other is what I remembered from the interview.